How much of a successful run-specialty business is built through the relationships you develop along the way? Greg Koch and Mark Jimenez welcome Trey Vernon of Manhattan Running Company and Red Dirt Race Management for a conversation about business partnerships, industry events, race timing, and the value of connecting with people beyond your usual circle. Trey shares how he and Ben Sigle founded Manhattan Running Company in 2008 and built a partnership around their different strengths. The group discusses the advantages and challenges of sharing ownership, the communication required to make a partnership work, and the importance of having someone who can challenge your thinking and provide a counterbalance. The conversation also explores Trey’s strategic approach to The Running Event, the growth of Red Dirt Race Management, and how timing the Unbound gravel race helped open an entirely new segment of the business. Along the way, Greg and Mark reflect on Trey’s reputation as one of the industry’s most welcoming and helpful store owners. Trey’s advice is simple: meet someone new. A conversation at an industry event may become a friendship, a collaboration, or the beginning of an opportunity you could not have planned.
Running Specialty Cooperative Podcast
Episode 5 Meet More People
Hosts Greg Koch and Mark Jimenez
Guest Trey Vernon Manhattan Running Company
Length 50 minutes 43 seconds
Editorial note This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity, punctuation, and corrected names while preserving the conversational character of the episode.
00:00 GREG
All right. You are listening to the running specialty cooperative podcast with your hosts, Mark Jimenez and Greg Koch today, we have a special guest, Trey Vernon joining us from Manhattan Running Company. We're going to introduce Trey in a little bit, but first Mark, since we last chatted, you and I have both done something that believe it or not, running stores don't off like running store owners don't often get to do. We each ran a race and I sort of teased last time that we were going to talk about you running a race. I want to hear about it. What'd you run and how'd it go?
00:28 MARK
Well, yeah, you know, before we get into that, Greg, I'm going to ask you a question, uh, have you heard of resting bitch face?
00:37 GREG
Um, I have.
00:39 MARK
Okay. So I was told, there you go. Yeah. Somebody who just always looks angry, right? So I was told from somebody who listened to our podcast that I have resting bitch voice and that like, I always sound angry. So I'm going to try to talk with a smile today and see if that smile comes through so that, you know, so that that doesn't bleed over.
01:00 GREG
Instead of, instead of bitch voice, you'll have snark voice.
01:03 MARK
Is that I'll have, I'll have happy voice. I don't want people to think I'm angry, not angry. No, you're pretty high. Yeah. I am. I am a happy guy. I ran the Berlin Marathon, um, and had a good time. It was, I mean, what a freaking amazing experience. And okay.
01:23 GREG
So world majors, what number was this for you?
01:26 MARK
This was number five. I've got the New York Marathon left of the original six. Okay.
01:32 GREG
And was that something you set out to pursue as world majors? Or did it just sort of happen?
01:37 MARK
Just kind of happened. I never really had any interest in running a world major because as you know, running, I'm smiling, running is for me. Uh, I don't see, uh, set out to do things like world majors. Um, I never thought I'd even qualify for Boston. Uh, then I qualified for Boston and, uh, went and did that. And then I used that time to get a guaranteed entry into Chicago, which just happened over the weekend. Amazing race. Um, then, uh, you know, I, that was kind of it. Then I got lucky. Then I got lucky and in the same year, I was able to get invited to run the Tokyo Marathon and the London Marathon, which I think are two of the hardest ones to get into, uh, I know New York's, New York's pretty hard to get into as well. And so once I did those, I was like, Oh man, I've got four of them. Like might as well finish this thing off. Well, you know, you're a running store owner, so I assume you just have piles of cash and that's how you're able to go do these things. Like you just, you just do charity bibs and spend all the money. And I got into the Berlin Marathon, uh, in a lottery. So that was all paid for out of pocket. Uh, luckily I had a lot of credit card points that helped to pay for some travel.
03:00 GREG
Um, but yeah, had you been to Berlin before or Germany before?
03:04 MARK
No, first time in central Europe, gotta say I really enjoyed it. Yeah, it's different pace for sure.
03:11 GREG
You know, I've heard Berlin. I haven't been to Berlin. I've been all over Germany, like Southern Germany, but I haven't made it to Berlin. I've heard Berlin is like, um, lots of like gray tones and, um, almost like, uh, dystopian and at times. Did you experience any of that or what was your thoughts of the city?
03:31 MARK
Hmm. That's a good question. Um, almost like a 1970s movie with the cold war in it. Uh, I think there were certain parts of the city that were like that overwhelming. I think it's a beautiful city. Um, so much history there that I realized people of younger generations probably won't even know anything about the Berlin wall and the cold war and how Berlin, West Berlin was literally surrounded, uh, by a country East Berlin or East Germany that was, you know, part of the, uh, well being run pretty much by the Soviet Union. I know that's an oversimplification. Please don't email me angry cold war thoughts. Uh, but you know, the fear, the absolute fear that must have, must have been like to live in West Berlin and be surrounded by a wall. It's crazy.
04:25 GREG
Dr. Mark gets his doctor from mathematics, not from history. So be kind.
04:31 MARK
But I love history. I actually have a degree to teach history. Well, I have a history teaching license. I just always taught me. I did teach history for two years. Yeah, I love it.
04:41 GREG
I did not know that I like learning new things about you on this podcast. That's one of the reasons why I keep showing up is cause I get to just put you on the spot and ask you questions. Um, awesome.
04:50 GREG
And how did the race go?
04:52 MARK
You know, I got a pretty sick about four weeks before the race started, which really threw a wrench into my training. Um, also training for an October race is really hard in Las Vegas when it's really hot, um, uh, those summer run, it just wears on you. And so it kind of just wasn't able to, it turned into really just a long run, a long, fun run, and I had a good attitude about it. So I didn't race for time. I just went out there and enjoyed the city and enjoyed the race and got a medal, so what's not to like, I did not jump on a bike.
05:34 GREG
Like, uh, I read an influencer did. Yeah, I saw that. Yes.
05:42 MARK
It seems like a good way to do a marathon. Just cruising on the back of a bicycle, not my jam. Yeah. We're not those types of influencers here. That's for sure. Right.
05:56 GREG
Well, what about you, Greg? What race did you do? Um, I ran the Twin Cities, the Medtronic TC 10 Mile. Uh, 10 mile race is my favorite distance. I do one race a year, basically that I register for, and this was it. It's been a bucket list race of mine for a long time. Um, I don't know if either one of you guys have been to the Twin Cities race, but it is pretty spectacular. It's challenging course, hilly, good support throughout. I think, you know, um, in terms of the Midwest Twin Cities has got to be one of the top notch races around. They do a fantastic job and this was just a cool experience. So I turned 40 last July and this was the whole weekend was sort of a gift from my wife to be able to go run a race, but then she also got us tickets to a Vikings game, my seven year old came along and we did museums and zoos and a water park. So we did all the family things in addition to running a race, but it was fun. I love a 10 mile race. I think it was the perfect distance because you have to train, but you don't have to sell your soul for it. Um, and it's challenging, but you get to walk afterwards like normally. So I know you're, you know, go ahead.
07:05 MARK
No, I was just going to be talking about the 10 mile race and maybe Trey could chime in here. Cause cause he's a college, a former college athlete. The 10 mile race is kind of dead on the West coast. Uh, I think it's pretty big or bigger, the further east you go. I talked to people in DC to talk about, oh yeah. Army 10 miler, big race. And it's a dis, but it's not a distance that I could find any race of out here on the West coast. They're 5k, 10k half marathon. They just skip over that 10 mile. Uh, Trey, what about in your neck of the woods? Is that a thing?
07:37 TREY
Um, not really. We have a military base 15 minutes away. So they do a, what they call it 10, five two. So it's a 10 mile, five mile, two mile, but it is, it's very small. And it's usually just used for the, uh, military people to kind of see who's going to make the 10 mile team. But my experience with 10 milers, I also agree they are a great distance, but in college, that's just what we did every Monday. We did a very hard 10 mile timed run. And every week that we did it, we had to do it 30 seconds faster than the week before you started an hour. And then every week you go down, down, until you were at like 55 minutes or lower.
08:23 GREG
Gross. Yeah. So tell us more about your, uh, your 10 miler. Did you do it in 55 minutes?
08:34 TREY
I did not know, but, uh, you know, you know, I've had a couple of years of injuries and health issues. And so to just be able to run healthy and happy was pretty fantastic. I ran faster than I thought I would. I did some of the stuff that we tell people not to do. I, uh, my a six rep sent me a pair of shoes the Friday before the race.
08:52 GREG
And I definitely wore them for the race. The, just because they're right out of the box, 10 miles. Had no issues. Um, so it can be done, but I still don't necessarily recommend it. But I figured either way I can create content on it, whether it went well or awful,
09:05 TREY
I could talk about it. So, um, that was fun. The, it was beautiful. I mean, we've got perfect fall weather right now in the Midwest. And, you know, so I think it was like 50 degrees at the start. Never really got super hot or anything like that. And yeah, you start by the, by U.S. Bank Stadium, uh, where the Vikings play. And then you finish at the Capitol, um, in St. Paul, so you run from Minneapolis to St.
09:34 GREG
Paul and it was great. I mean, good crowd support got done and timed. I'd just walk over to my hotel, have breakfast, take a shower all before checkout. So just really the perfect sort of day of running. And let me get, like I said, just to be healthy, um, and able to run and not feel miserable about it was great. So ton of fun. Um, let's, uh, let's, let's officially introduce Trey. You got to hear his voice Trey, uh, from Manhattan Running. Probably, uh, Mark backed me up on this. Probably the nicest guy in the running industry by far, um, the most inclusive person I've ever met. Wants to make sure everyone has a good time. Trey Vernon, tell us all about your backstory. Uh, you mentioned college. Where'd you go to college and tell us about your store. How long have you been in business?
10:25 TREY
Well, uh, thanks Greg and Mark. Uh, that is a very nice intro of you. Uh, I hope that I can live up to it. Um, yeah, I went to college at Oklahoma State University, uh, in the like 98 to 2003 range and let's just say that, uh, Oklahoma State was not as good. Then we were more like academic, all American than winning national championships. Uh, but I had a wonderful time there. I love still water. Um, that's where I met my current business partner. Ben Sigle. We were roommates and teammates for five years and, uh, grew to know each other. And, uh, so after we graduated, we both did what I would consider normal jobs, uh, that we both did not like. Uh, mine was a behind the desk job where I didn't get to talk to anybody. And if you know me, that's just not my thing. Uh, I like to put you in jail. Yeah. Uh, I like to talk to people. So, uh, the job that I worked at, I happened to be living in London for. And, uh, Ben called me and said, Hey, I'm thinking about opening up a running store. I know we had, you know, kind of joked about it in college, but I think I want to do it. And so I was in London at the time and I worked on the business plan and he would go and get the statistics that we needed or talk to the banks. And then I would fill that in to our business plan. I would send it back to him. And so we worked on that for like six months and, uh, we had one bank in town that said, Hey, you're not crazy. Uh, we'll give you some money. And so in 2008 in July, we started Manhattan Running Company and we've been around for 18 years. We've had as many as three locations. Uh, we had Salina, Kansas and Omaha, Nebraska. At one time we've since sold both of our, both of those. The Salina one does not currently exist anymore. The one in Omaha is now a Fleet Feet. Um, the reason being is we got. To stretch too thin, um, with those things being an hour and then a three hour drive from our store. And then our timing company, which is Red Dirt Race Management, which is what Ben typically takes care of a lot, um, right now, it just kind of blew up in 2012 and so that got so big that we needed to move our resources towards this store and that race timing business. To give ourselves some sanity.
13:22 MARK
So I'm going to jump in because, uh, man, so many stories to tell about Trey. First about, uh, Trey being very welcoming. Here's a piece of advice. If you ever make a dinner reservation and invite Trey, you need to at least double the amount of people on the reservation because there's been two or three times that we get a group, you know, we're at The Running Event. And Hey, let's go, let's go have dinner. How many people can we get people? Okay. We get people. Okay. 10 people throughout the day. Trey will text you, Oh, I invited a couple other people. Oh, I invited these other people. I just didn't want them to be alone. So if you make a reservation, if you tell Trey to make a reservation for 10, you better make it for at least 20 because he is super welcoming. And then the next thing is I'm not, I think Ben is a figment of Trey's imagination. I know, I know technically I met him, but I think it might've been a hired actor, uh, like I'm sure, you know, I don't know. I don't know if this Ben guy is real. All I ever see is Trey. So those are my, those are my two things, the conspiracy theory and a message about how happy he is and inviting.
14:36 TREY
Yeah. I, uh, I do tend to not like to let people get left out. So yeah. Mark is right on the invitation thing. Uh, it does tend to escalate quickly. Um, Ben does exist. The reason that most people don't see him as much is because he takes care of the timing side for the most part. And I take care of a lot more of the running store side. It just kind of became a natural split at some point. And that's the directions we went. Um, we also, you know, I timed this weekend. We still time. He still works the floor, but for the most part, that's what he does. But if you want to meet him in person, he will be there at TRE this year. So,
15:21 MARK
Well, I did your invitation to meet Ben. Yeah.
15:28 GREG
I like it. So that leads me to a question that I can throw to both of you guys. Um, you know, Mark in previous, uh, podcasts, we've talked about how valuable KJ is to you in terms of having a teammate, um, within the business and Trey, you know, you're talking about Ben, um, tell me, um, let's, let's go like this, tell me your, the number one benefit to that and the most challenging part of that. So, you know, opposite and opposed, give me that in terms of when you have, uh, you know, a right hand, um, person within your business that's making you successful, what makes it really successful? And then what's the most challenging part about it? And you guys can go in whatever order you want.
16:15 TREY
You want to go, Mark? Well, I am I answering this? Uh, I think this is Trey's the guest. We gotta let Trey go first. Okay. Um, I would say that number one benefit of having a partner and you know, they always tell you know, and Mark knows this, that you shouldn't go into business with your best friend. Um, it did work for me. Uh, we had lived so long together in college and we knew exactly how each other worked, you know, how to push each other's buttons, all that kind of stuff. And I think the reason that it works so well for us is that we are very different and we are good at different things. I can talk to you guys, no problem, but I'm not a massive public speaker person, uh, whereas Ben has always been fine. We always used to joke that he could talk to a tree. Like he could just talk to anybody at any time and it was fine. Uh, I'm more of like a personal, I'd like to get to know you and you know, that kind of setting. So we had different qualities that really just work together. And so I think that that has helped us a lot and to help cover up each of our weaknesses because it's our partner's strength. Um, the, the downside, which, you know, it's not, I wouldn't say it's like the craziest thing ever, but the downside is when you have a partner, you just don't get to do whatever you want whenever you want to do it. Right. So for about, I don't know, three months now, I have been banging the drum to get a bouncy house for our races. Like I really just want to own a bounce house because I think it'd be cool to have at the end of our races. We used to rent bounce houses and the kids would love it and it got expensive. So, you know, I reached out, I got one designed, it's not cheap. And so because half the money is his, we have to come to mutual agreement on those types of things. And so currently I don't have a bounce house yet. So those are those, that would be my downside.
18:33 GREG
If this man of bounce house, it's not for the kids. We know the truth. Yeah.
18:38 MARK
And started go fund me. Get that, get that. Everybody's going to, yeah, that sounds dangerous, a bounce house. Is it for the adults or for the kids that are there like watching the race? Yes.
18:50 TREY
I mean, the biggest one we'd use it for is our half marathon where the kids are all hanging out, watching either brother, sister, mom, dad run. And they just bored. So something for them to do. Um, we, like I said, we've had it where we've rented it before, but the biggest thing is you've got to have somebody, you know, watching it and manning it so it doesn't get crazy in the bounce house, but it just gives
19:11 MARK
the kids something to do. And the parents that have, you know, a couple of kids running around and
19:18 TREY
they're trying to watch their spouse or, you know, their other sibling
19:20 MARK
somewhere that the kids can burn off some energy. Nice. Yeah. Oh, well, and I know you could brand it too.
19:30 TREY
You could get the Velcro strips for banners, sell it to sponsors.
19:32 GREG
Yeah. You thought all that through. It's great. Like a giant billboard. The only thing you have to worry about, you know, uh, Trey, you deal with some of the same stuff I do. We have no Hills around here. So the wind is kind of crazy. Lots of sandbags. Yeah. I love it. How about you, Mark? Talk about having a, you know, KJ, you, you mentioned it in the previous podcast, so you don't have to go too in depth, but the benefits of having someone that you trust that's there for you as a partner in business.
20:05 MARK
Yeah. I've had, I've had both ends of the spectrum and Greg, you, uh, you don't get to be off the hook here because you've had business partners too. Um, yeah, I started when we bought red rock running company. I had a business partner and yeah, it was a real close friend of mine. And, uh, I didn't have the same experiences traded. Uh, it's, it's very hard. It's like a marriage. Uh, you are in business. Your finances are tied together. Do you have a vision for how the company wants to go? He has a vision for how the company wants to go. And since we bought an existing store, we probably both thought, oh, how hard can it be selling shoes? You know, um, well, it was, it was very hard and we had different visions and it didn't work out. And after what, maybe 18 months, 20 months, I bought him out. Um, and now of course, KJ is the, is the business partner and, uh, the hardest thing, the thing that we constantly have to work on, uh, is communication, because if you don't tell your partner, what you're doing, that's just a recipe for disaster. And I do have that tendency to just make a decision and start going with it. And, you know, then I have to go backwards and be like, Oh, I didn't communicate this. Oops. And really explain that. Um, we do each of us have strengths and, uh, and we try to play to those strengths. And when things are going good, you know, we're talking about, uh, the direction of the company and the people in the company, uh, but there's always challenges, there's just challenges that kind of tend to repeat. And sometimes we just want to throw our hands up in there and be like, when are we going to be done dealing with this problem? Um, but yeah, it's, it's, uh, it's about communication and it's something that I'm going to be working on for the rest of my life, just communicating. It's, it's just always difficult for me.
22:14 GREG
Yeah. Since you, since you mentioned it, um, I think business partners, uh, are great and I was fortunate. I had an awesome business partner who was really good at stuff that I am not good at and, you know, he was a CPA so back into the business, he could handle really smoothly and, um, you know, when we had to part ways, uh, I still miss him all the time, just because of the skillset that he brought to the table. And, um, he wasn't really interested on being the face of the business or being out in front. He also lived in Omaha, so he wasn't in Sioux Falls. Um, but, uh, when we had to part ways, it really made me grow up a lot, um, and become just a better professional. And, you know, so there's benefits to that. And I do think you guys are both spot on that communication piece and being able to, um, have that person where you can bounce ideas off, something that can put you in check. Um, and that's probably the thing that scares me the most right now as I'm a solo entrepreneur with our store is the, uh, who puts me in check and who is that balance, um, because it's so easy to go down a rabbit hole and say, this is, this is the way I'm 100% confident and not see any of the blind spots on whatever the thing might be that you're going on towards the business. And so I've had to grow up a ton, um, in the last two years, uh, professionally and really work on slowing down and analyzing as many of the angles as I possibly can, not having that person, um, in the business. And so I, I have a great professional network that's on display right here. That is incredibly helpful. And so for other store owners out there that might be solo entrepreneurs and in it, um, on their own, uh, reach out to guys like Mark guys, like Trey, um, because where you might not have a partner in business, you've got advocates in the support network that's available, so good stuff there. Let's get back to Trey and, um, I want to hear Trey, I think you thrive at places like The Running Events, trade shows, um, industry experiences and those types of things. I want to hear about your strategy as you prepare to go to, let's say The Running Event, what sort of preparation goes into The Running Event for Trey Vernon?
24:45 TREY
Yeah, uh, I do really like going to those kinds of events, mostly because I get to see, you know, you guys in person, I get to see other, uh, store owners that I don't get to see on a, on a monthly yearly basis. This is the one shot or maybe two shots that I get to see you guys in person, which is, you know, so much different than just a phone call. Uh, you know, you're hanging out, uh, you get to, you get to see. VPs and sales reps and all those kinds of people, and you can just hang out and have conversations outside of like trying to sell something. And I love those things because those are where some of the best ideas come from. So my strategy for things like TRE Summit, stuff like that is if I have you as a brand and I have a rep, I don't really want to do a product showing at TRE, uh, I feel like that's a waste of good time. So I'm fine. Uh, I will set up strategy meetings, marketing meetings, talking about like, you know, what my direction of my business is, how does it align with a brand's, you know, vision or what they want to do and I'll have those kinds of meetings, but I don't want to look at shoes and socks or apparel or whatever. If I have a rep in my area, um, which I don't have for every brand. So sometimes it is the only time I get to see it. Um, and that's okay. That's when I can do those, but for the most part, all the big vendors shoe brands, I have reps that can show me those things at a different time. And we can have a longer conversation about what's going on in my store there and not use up the very, what goes, it seems like a long time, but it goes by so quickly, uh, when you just have meeting after meeting. So I like to have a few meetings that are very important. If I have a brand I want to really talk to and really do something with. And then the rest of it, I like to either schedule time with, with other people, I like to schedule a dinner, you know, as Mark eludes to hang out time, and then I like to just wander. I really like to just wonder that the sale, the expo floor has gotten so big now that if you just spent one day walking up and down every aisle, you might not talk to every booth for even 10 seconds, you know, it's very large. And so I like to wander around and one bump into whoever I bump into, which is kind of cool. And then to just see what else is out there that might be the next thing that becomes popular, right? Like, I dunno, six, seven years ago, it was good or sunglasses. Then it was ChicknLegs. There's always like, what's going to be the little item that I can add. It's going to make my store just a little bit better and give my customers something that they might not find other places. So I like to leave a lot of quote unquote open time for just kind of wandering around and seeing what happens.
28:07 GREG
Trey, for those that don't know him, they probably do know him. Trey, you're easy to recognize. You know, you're like me, you're tall, you got red hair, easy to spot. Talk to me about sort of, we've mentioned this where you are very welcoming and you want to bring people into the tents and take care of others, where does that come from? Give me some backstory on just sort of that growth as a professional and as someone that's just looking out for other store owners and folks in the industry where you're, you're creating that experience for others.
28:47 TREY
I think it, I think it's just always been in me. I can remember back in high school, I always felt like I was the one or two people that could really go with any group. You know, I ran cross country, so obviously I spent a lot of time with the cross country folks, but also a lot of my friends were football players or baseball players or basketball. And so I felt like I just was in all the groups, but I was one of the few people that was in all of those groups and I just wanted to like have everybody hang out. But as we know, that's, you know, that's not how those things go. But I felt like I just was fine in any of the groups I was in and I just liked being in those. So I think that just carries on, you know? And so like when I meet somebody and I'm, you know, it's a store and I'm super excited and not that I know more than anybody else, but like I see some place where like, man, I've already been there. Let me help you with this. Like, I just love that. I don't, I don't want any specialty run store owner to have to reinvent the wheel because other people help me do the same thing when I was, you know, the, the rookie. And I just love sharing success with others and I love seeing other people succeed, whether it's something I help them with or not. And so I just, I think I thrive off of just seeing other people do good things, you know, my, one of my good friends and he's helped me a lot is Ken Lerstad at Running Lab and I couldn't have been more proud when they run one running store of the year. It wasn't my store, but I was like so pumped. I was like, this is the coolest thing ever. And so I just like to see people doing cool stuff and succeeding. And so, yeah, I just like to, I'm a good connector. I like to connect people. Uh, I don't know, we were at a dinner one time and Mark called me something. I don't remember what it was, but it was something to that effect. And, uh, I thought that was pretty fitting cause that's, that's kind of what I do.
31:04 MARK
I was a little worried when he said, Mark called me something. I'm like, Oh no, you see, could they hold a grudge? Like, what did I call you? You're the, you're the guy, I think there's a whole, there's a word for a type of person like, you know, I forget what it is, but like you're the central hub, uh, you're the center of the Venn diagram, right? Uh, there's been many times where, you know, I mean, we have a conversation. Oh, I'm having problem. Hey, Trey's like, well, you got to talk to, you know, Bob over here. He, you know, he'll take care of that. He's really good. And, uh, Trey is also a kind of guy that some people, when they experience success, they want to keep it to themselves. They don't, they don't want to tell others, uh, or share how they got that success, but Trey, man, the second he does something cool. He's on the horn call and everybody, he knows like, Hey guys, I did this and it's so easy and you could do it too. And here's how. So yeah, it's really cool to get those calls from Trey.
31:56 MARK
Um, I want to know how you guys, his timing business blew up. Cause that's something that a lot of running stores don't have the, you know, the recipe for success that you guys do over there.
32:11 TREY
Yeah. Uh, as with a lot of things, sometimes it's just luck. Uh, we started timing our own races to begin with and, you know, Manhattan is not a big town, barely 50,000 people. So we don't have big races. I think at the time that we started really timing, the biggest race in our town was the St. Patrick's Day race at maybe 1500 people. So, I mean, that's, it's fine, but that's not nothing compared to, you know, St. Louis or Kansas city or something like that. Um, but we just kept timing and we kept timing more and we kept honing our craft. And honestly, I think the big thing that launched us was there was a race called DK 200, um, and it's a 200 mile gravel bike race. And I think it was in year nine that we took over timing for that and at that time gravel racing started to get popular. And in the Midwest around here, we have a lot of gravel. So it got bought by Life Time. And then now it's called Unbound and it's the world premiere gravel race anywhere and it's Emporia, Kansas. And we just happened to time it before and they kept us and we've, we've kept going. And so we found this niche in the gravel bike community. And so when you can time Unbound other races are like, Hey, you can time my race, which yes, of course we can. And so really when the gravel bike racing started to get big, that's when we started to really pick up some bigger races and start to do, you know, some very cool stuff with timing, I feel like some of it also helps in the, in the timing scene. You've got, you know, you've got people my age. You've got some people younger, but you've also got a group that's getting older that at some point is going to retire. And so, uh, you know, you're always hanging out, waiting, uh, to see if a race when that person retires is interested in a new timer and that's how you know, you do it because a lot of race directors, they just don't want to switch race timers if things are going well, which I a hundred percent agree with, but I think where we are is we use ChronoTrack and we are always embracing whatever the newest technology is for ChronoTrack and we're using it. And I don't think every timer or race director is doing that. And so I think embracing it as it comes and just moving it forward gives us a big advantage over other people who don't want to do that. So it's just kind of happened that way. I would love it if we were in a little bit bigger town, I wouldn't have to do so many smaller races. I could do a lot more bigger ones, but you know, we just do a lot of traveling. This last weekend, I was in Bentonville and I will be in Bentonville again on Thursday, so that's just comes with the territory. I love it.
35:30 GREG
So the kind of guy Trey is I had, I had a race, I timed my first gravel race last summer and the, this town reached out to me, they were talking about, they were going to do a hundred mile gravel bike race. And for me, that was overwhelming. You know, I'm a, I'm like a 5k, 10k specialist when it comes to timing. Those smaller races, that's my wheelhouse. Um, cause I'm newer, I'm newer to the game and still learning very much. And, um, they reached out and I said, I think I can do this, but let me just make a phone call. And I sent Trey just a quick one off text message. Hey, when you have a moment, give me a call. I'd like to ask you some questions about gravel bike races and no joke within two minutes, my phone is ringing and it's Trey, like, however much time you need he's got for you. And he'll answer every single question you have, and he'll set you up for success does not hesitate. I think people like that are just unbelievable. People like you Trey are unbelievable in terms of the willingness to call. And then even this last weekend, Trey's, you know, I'm uploading results at a, at a gas station parking lot from a trail race that I was timing, um, cause there was no service and Trey calls me and he's like, you know what you need to do. You got to get Starlink and, uh, this is how you can make this better. But also I've got this awesome idea. I've been working on this thing and I wanted to share it with you because, um, I know your story. I know what you're working on. I know how hard you're working on. And I just want to help you unbelievable stuff. Trey, that is you in a nutshell. Thank you for being you. I have a question here for Mark.
36:59 MARK
Mark, I want to know how did you meet Trey? And what did that look like? Oh, I am going to guess that the first time I met Trey, it was probably at the first Runchella. They called it at, was it at the Curtis hotel, the Kick Show, Kick Show. It was the Kick Show before it was run shell. And I think you were helping sign people in like in a hallway somewhere. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And I remember walking up and I think he had like a Manhattan Running shirt or something on and everything. Well, this guy must have a lot of money. He's got a store in Manhattan. Choose Louise. Like I could, I know what rents like in Vegas, but he's got rent in Manhattan. How many shoes do you have to sell to have rent in Manhattan? Um, and then, uh, I think it was maybe the next year at the same event. Uh, where Brooks had like a thing where they got together and they, they took us to a fake casino and gave us fake money to gamble. And I was standing at the craps table and the person with the most fake money at the end of the night, Brooks was going to throw like a holiday party floor, right? Yup. So, so Trey loves craps. Let me tell you, like Trey's the craps guy and I'm from Vegas and everybody thinks I'm a great gambler. I was like, I never gamble. Like people come gamble here. And that's why I don't have a state income tax. So I'm at this table and like, I just want to go home. So I put my whole stack of chips on some random bet and it wins. Right. Like, and so now I'm like, great. Now I got to wait till the end of the night to see if, uh, I have enough money to, you know, to win this thing. So I didn't gamble the rest of the night, but I stood next to Trey. And I think we just kept talking about, I mean, the guys just like a squirrel on caffeine, just a million miles a minute. Oh, I got a bet here. And he's placing bets all over the table and he keeps winning. So, uh, if you ever want to go play craps, definitely get in touch with Trey, but I'm pretty sure that's how we, that's how we met. And, uh, just every time we go somewhere, Trey would always come out of his way to say hello. So that's, that's the story. Is that how you remember it, Trey?
39:26 TREY
Yeah, I remember it because he kept making these terrible bets and winning. And it was so frustrating because he just wanted to go home. And I was like, I'm like playing at the way you're supposed to play craps and he's just throwing all his chips on. And then he keeps doubling up and he shouldn't have been losing, but he kept hitting and I was like, Oh my gosh. It was, it was very, it was very funny and frustrating. Cause I'm like, he just wants to go home. He keeps putting his whole stack on this thing and it, the game won't let him go home. So, and he, you know, it worked out good. Cause we got to talk longer, but yeah, uh, that I, that's the first time I remember meeting Mark and like more than just say, Hey, here's a badge capacity.
40:12 GREG
Also Mark, we're running store owners. We're all gamblers. Yeah, fair.
40:19 MARK
I bet on myself though.
40:21 GREG
Yeah, it's a good bet.
40:23 MARK
All right. P Rose.
40:27 GREG
Yeah, well, uh, there's a whole other topic there, but yeah.
40:34 GREG
Um, yeah, I didn't like Trey when I first met him, if I'm going to be honest, I'm pretty sure it might've been like a, like a top to top meeting, um, or something Trey was the loudest voice in the room and I was just like, why is this guy so mad at this brand? And when is he going to chill out? I wanted nothing to do with them because I didn't know him. And then I remember being at like a indie five K and I was like, I'm going to beat that dude. Um, and that'll make me feel better. And then I couldn't beat him at all. Like, that's why I don't like Trey. Cause he doesn't run all year and bust out like a 17 minute five. Yeah. I ran one of my fastest five K's ever. And I was like two minutes behind Trey. I was like, ah, this is the worst. But then I actually got to know him much better, much better experience. And he's the Trey that we know and love now, but, uh, talk to me about, uh, some of those experiences Trey, where you've been in top to top meetings and what have you learned from those experiences?
41:30 TREY
Well, I'm pretty sure I know exactly which one you're talking about because it seems to be infamous. Um, I think that, uh, I, I hope that I've grown up since then. Uh, and I hope that I've learned how to address it in a better fashion. Um, you know, I feel like at that time it was just at the, at the time when it really felt like brands were trying to just take our customers and it really bothered me. And so I was very impassioned because I was not only fighting for what I thought was my store, but everybody else. And so, um, and I made it known that I was dissatisfied with the direction that the company was, that was doing it was going. Um, and I think since then what I've learned is that when I have something that I feel is unfair or that, you know, is going against my store, um, instead of just complaining, which in all honesty, doesn't do anything. Uh, I, I, now I will, I will tell them the problem, but I'm not going to do that unless I at least come up with what I think is a workable solution. Now the brand might think not, might not agree with what I have come up with, but instead of just complaining and having nothing more to say, if I'm going to bring up a problem, I want to at least give what I think is a solution that hopefully will help both sides. And so I think that that's where, you know, I feel like I've grown up and that I hope that I've become a better partner to work with because I'm not just bringing issues and complaining. I'm bringing issues, but I'm also trying to bring how to solve them. And so I think that's, that's the biggest difference from then and now.
43:40 GREG
I love it. Was this infamous meeting in Chicago at, I think it was still called Runchella. Yeah. I think I even heard about that one. Yeah. Yeah, it happens. And I think, I think all three of us have been guilty of, uh, feeling beyond our store that we have to speak for everyone. Um, and that can be a slippery slope sometimes because not everyone operates the same way that we do. And, um, you know, all three of our stores operate differently. And we come across those things. We might all have the same point of sale system, but like each one of us does a special order differently or whatever that might look like. And so it can be, um, a little chaotic in moments like those. But I think, um, I think the growth that you've shown and just, um, been so vocal about it, like, Hey, yeah, this was a rough meeting, but I've gotten better, um, is, I think that's really commendable, but I want to know, Mark, uh, what burning questions do you have for Trey before we lay on this plane today?
44:49 MARK
Burning questions for Trey. I don't, I don't know that I have any more burning questions for Trey. He's, um, uh, okay. Final question. This'll be the last question. Trey, I, uh, just started race timing, as you know, well, gosh, maybe three or four years ago now, in my experience, race timing, I enjoy timing my own races where I'm also the race organizer and race director way, way more than I enjoy timing somebody else's race. To the point that I've even considered like not timing anybody else's race anymore, because it seems like if something goes wrong, even though my responsibility is the finish line, I'm the one getting blamed and it drives me nuts. So how do you handle that?
45:41 TREY
Uh, yeah, I go back and forth on that one because sometimes I feel like it is just so much easier to show up on race day and time the race and then leave and not mess with all the volunteers and the setting up. The only downside of that is yes, because you're the timer and you're the one that is in charge of results, you are default in charge of everything. Um, and I think what we do is we just take the questions in, absorb them. If we can help them, we try to do it. If not, I'm handing it off to the person that's appropriate. The thing that I like the most about timing our own races is that because Ben is taking care of it and we've been doing it for so long, if you run one of our races, and this goes for our participants, you know that if you run an MRC event that we put on, it's going to be a certain level of quality. Whereas I can't say that for the ones I time, a lot of them are, but I don't control all the factors in those. Whereas in the ones that we put on, we control all the factors and we have it that we want this level of quality and service and expectation of what people are going to expect. And so knowing all those things, the timing goes easier because we fix all the problems that we know are going to happen preemptively. And sometimes you just can't do that when you're not the race director or doing all the stuff. So yes, it takes a lot more effort for those, but I think those races always go way smoother than another race. So all of our races are always certified. The courses are there. We make sure we have enough volunteers, all of the, you know, eyes are dotted, tees are crossed. And, you know, unfortunately there are races where the people putting it on, they're putting it on because they think it's going to make a lot of money, but they don't really know how to put on a race. But they see people, they see, oh, there's like a lot of people that run this race. And so they put one on, but I, when they do that, I don't think they realize how hard and how much goes into putting on a race to make it a success before they start the endeavor down that road.
48:13 GREG
Yeah, that's an excellent question, Mark. And Trey, thank you so much for your time today. I think we're definitely going to have to have you back because this went so fast and we've barely scratched the surface. There are many more questions that I could ask you, Trey, whether it be about, I mean, we barely even talked about in-store experiences, fit process or any of those types of things with you. But I think the takeaway is you by far and away are one of the best in the business, just one of the nicest men I have ever met and keep doing the good work that you're doing. Keep being that shining light at those events, because I know you have flat out made events for me just by welcoming me and making sure that I'm taken care of and that doesn't happen very often. So people like you really make the industry special. People like Mark make the industry special too. I want to make sure I throw that out there as well. So you guys are both awesome. Thank you so much for joining us today, Trey. If you could leave us with one message before we go, we're gonna let you have the last say on the podcast today, Trey. So what's your one message to running store owners today?
49:28 TREY
Well, going with the theme and thank you so much. I appreciate you guys. And man, that that means a lot to me. And I love having you guys as friends. So thank you so much. I would say when you go to TRE or when you go to this next event, meet one person you don't know, and just find their story, find out, they might be able to help you. And you don't even know it. So just I would say, meet someone new that you've never met, take the time, because sometimes even myself, I get stuck in, oh, I just want to talk to the people that I know. That's easiest, right? So I just encourage you to reach out, meet one new store owner, even if it's just one, because you never know, that might end up into a great friendship. So that would be my advice.
50:20 GREG
Beautiful. You have been listening to the Running Specialty Cooperative podcast, your host, Mark Jimenez and Greg Koch. Until next time, we'll see you when we'll see you. Bye everybody.
RUNNING SPECIALTY COOPERATIVE • EPISODE 5 TRANSCRIPT